Perspective is Everything

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 11/14/2018 at 21:15 • Filed to: Life Lessons

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Watching the threads about the 992 on Rennlist really gives you perspective. I’m gearing up for a suspension refreshing on the 931 and changing the oil pan gasket and turbo oil line seal. There, some are concerned with how “Lexus” Porsche is becoming and whether or not they’ll buy the next $100k+ 911.

I find it both fi ckle, funny, and entertaining haha. Life’s filled with never ending problems. It’s up to us to fill it with the best problems. Be it replacing bushings, gaskets, and seals, or whether or not the next 911 will still be 911-enough to buy. I think both are good problems to have, and I wouldn’t trade my problem for theirs.

That said, I’m definitely not looking forwards to the 992 from the spy pics and info released ahead of the LA Motor Show. BTW, the 992 will be debuting at the LA Motor Show.

CB > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 21:19

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It’s interesting trying to understand how the severity of problems that a person faces is all in relation to their life experiences. It’s also interesting trying to yell at some of those people and shout “that isn’t a problem!”

In any case, you going to be driving the Porsche this winter, or keeping it in the garage?

Maxima Speed > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 21:22

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The prospect of a 992 makes me warm and fuzzy.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > CB 11/14/2018 at 21:24

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Everything is a problem, some are just better than others. Some good, great, bad, and ugly. Our life experiences provide us a perspective of problems that others may or may not see as problems. It’s in every person, class, country, you name it. For me, owning a classic Porsche Turbo at 23 is a good problem to have.

I’m gonna be garaging it and working relentlessly as possible throughout the winter. The current oil leak is bad enough that I can burn a quart every other day and without a adequate hvac system because a heater core bypass and other niggles, I can hardly see with all the condensation. I may take it to the occasional drive if the roads are clear of the wet stuff and salt.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Maxima Speed 11/14/2018 at 21:27

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How do you figure? It’s essentially a 991.2 with a makeover inside and out (for better or worse), and a plethora of more tech for a much higher price. At least that’s my initial perspective.

Share yours?

glemon > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 21:52

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You have a 931? I have some 924 small bits , mostly interior, that are taking up storage space, if you have needs let me know.  I had a 924 and picked some spares off a 931 at a u pick it yard (a travesty) I wanted the NACA duct hood, but they stuffed it under a neighboring car for support in the mud.  Very sad.

Maxima Speed > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 21:52

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My perspective? New Porsche!   . Also it looks beautiful. Also I was under the impression that this was going to be completely new car. I’m excited to see what they have come up with.

wafflesnfalafel > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 22:04

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I just want a GT4... or a silver 89' Carrera

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > glemon 11/14/2018 at 22:16

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Yeah! It’s a 1980 Series 1 931. What 924 bits have you got?? I’ve been slowly piecing together an adequate interior and depending on what it is will gladly accept any decent parts. It came to me as an unknown basket case and has been an absolute dream rehabilitating it over the last year.

It’s a genuinely fun car.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 22:17

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The 992 is just... there’s a lot of assholes in the Porsche community who scream it’s not a real Porsche if it isn’t aircooled, it isn’t a real Porsche if it isn’t a 911, it isn’t a real Porsche if it doesn’t try to murder you if you lift off the gas, etcetera. Most of the people I see bitching about the 992 are, frankly, those kind of assholes.

None of them have actually identified the real problems of the 992. “Too Lexus”? YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER , THAT STARTED WITH THE 993. Or are you going to claim PCM isn’t “Lexus”? God damn I hate that shit.

The 992 has LOTS of REAL problems and instead Porsche will hold up these chucklefucks, correctly say “we don’t care about these misguided manchildren, ” and continue to ignore the real problems . And what real problems doth RootWyrm speak of?

The electronic power steering system they have is the worst on the road. A dead fish has more feedback than a Porsche 991.2 near center. Rear wheel steering is an idiotic attempt to cover up the fact that they fucked up bigtime . All they had to do was get the steering feedback to the 997.1 or 997.2 level. This isn’t hard. And they chose not to.

North-south slats was an unforgivable styling error. Not because of how it looks. How it looks is irrelevant in large part, because it’s just too damned polarizing and too far off the origins. I’m sorry, but go look at 70 years of Porsche designs. The 356 doesn’t even count as north-south because it’s a full cross grille, and the only example. The 912 is east-west. The 911 has always been east-west. The 959 is east-west. Even the Boxster/Cayman speak east-west design language. Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, Carrera GT, 918, it’s all east-west zero north-south. Not to mention, it doesn’t match the styling language of the front end. At all.

Two things keep getting bigger on Porsches: the pricetag and the wheels. The 997.2 GTS is harsh enough with 19" wheels and gods help you and your spine if you hit a pothole with 30 profile tires. The 992? Fucking twenty one inch wheels . Bigger wheels with even less sidewall just mean they’re even more miserable, and you’ll have an even harder time finding tires. Putting bigger wheels on might offer a marginal contact patch increase, but increasing the profile to 35 or 40 would do a hell of a lot more. And that’s based on what Porsche builds the GT3 Cup and RSR to (18" and 40 profile,) so I’m gonna go ahead and assume they know best there.

The rear spoiler, oh my god, I don’t even know where to begin. It looks horrible. It just looks horrible. Not for a Porsche - period. There had to be a better looking way to address the aerodynamic lift problem than what they went with. I refuse to believe there wasn’t, because everybody else has managed it.

I mean seriously. The only way they could have botched it worse would be giving it a 4 cylinder turbo in the base, center-exit fake tailpipes, and a bunch of chrome up front. I fully expect the in-depth analyses are going to find a ton of inexcuable cost-cutting on top of it like fake plastic screws, cheaper materials, and embarrassing parts sharing.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Maxima Speed 11/14/2018 at 22:20

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From the spy shots and renders we’ve got until the LA Motor Show, it will be a good 911. Just not for me. I remember making a post about why the 991 wasn’t my 911....I’m prepared to redact some things.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/14/2018 at 22:39

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An individual of culture. We shall commence discussion.

Personally I didn’t find the 991's steering to be any worse than my Mustang, newest Camaro’s, and the BMW 428i ; the only sporty cars I’ve driven that I can fairly compare. It was on par with communication and maybe even better. The only Porsche’s I can compare steering to are three decades old and it’s no contest there, almost cheating. Expecting that kinda response is just a fallacy today I’ve accepted, so I consider their’s to be pretty good. Much better than BMW’s and any SUV or CUV by a longshot!

The slats were a hard sell for me. I much prefer the east-west to north-south as you say, for nostalgia, heritage and the lot. If I recall right, the direction was changed for the purpose of assisting the intake or something like that of the 9A2 engine when the 991.2 came out. I could be wrong. When it’s left black, I can deal with it; painted body color and it’s nasty. I’ll agree that it definitely doesn’t match the front styling. Though with the vertical design lines on the bonnet of the 992, it may appear more cohesive.

The rising pricetag sucks donkeydicks, and the fact that you can option 21" wheels on the 911 up to the Cayenne is maddening for costs of upkeep, tires, and road comfort and manners. I believe a 19-20" wheel with a 35-45 series tire is the best option. The increase of contact patch with a larger diameter wheel is more compromise than a benefit. And I always spec cars with the smallest wheel possible because of that. It also looks better with smaller wheels and thicker rubber.

The spoiler is awful so we’ll move on.

Unfortunately the exhaust tips are faker than ever now. Just like on the GT2RS above...

glemon > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 22:54

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Looks nice, almost pulled the trigger on one a couple years ago, I have the itch after having my N/A 924, but the seller (a day’s drive away) wouldn’t offer up much more on the car than “he knew what he’s got”.

Power mirror and rear (?) wiper switch

Dash lights and HVAC knobs

Engine mount spring (I think, don’t know if these are the same 924/931) fuel injector O ring seals (ditto)

Thermostat seal (??) Some kind of switch

I thought I had a bunch of fuses, but maybe I sold them in the car.

My bird IS the word > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 23:01

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I’m fine with lexus. they build quality automobiles. Kinda the reason I want a 911 as my “If I get rich” DD.

NYankee1927 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/14/2018 at 23:01

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I love the look of the new 992. I think they actually nailed in the styling department. I like the rear tail light bar, reminiscent of the 80’s. I’ll pass on huge wheels and would select it with the smallest available, but besides that, I think they are headed in the right direction.

Also I do have to add the 991.1/991.2  steering feel a nd weight out on track isn’t bad. It is probs the best available on the market right now. The thing I loved the most is the cars can be out on track all day taking a beating and have zero problems. No brake fade, no overheating, no tires falling to pieces. Just a beautifully balanced platform doing what it does best.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/15/2018 at 00:00

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We shall!

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The real irony here is that I compare it negatively to a Buick . I am not joki ng at all. Find thee hence a 2014-2017 Buick Regal (T-Type or GS, either or.) Compare back-to-back the steering feedback nearest the center of the wheel. You will immediately notice that one of them has better on-center feedback - the Buick . This should NEVER be. “Oh, but the Buick still use-” Nope. The Regal has used a fully electric power steering setup since the 2012 model year.

Now to be fair, Porsche’s steering feedback even in the 997.2 is not as good as I prefer or am used to. But it is also not as expensive , and it is much less overwhelming. The 997.2 GTS can be operated with one hand comfortably, and provides entirely adequate feedback. That’s not a bad thing. It’s much easier on road trips than something that will literally rip the wheel out of your hand rut-hunting.

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I heard something similar and basically immediately recognized it as the bullshit it is. The 9A2 is a revision of the 9A1. The 9A1 is what you find in the 991.1 and 991.2 Turbo S , which obviously produces way more heat. The 9A1 is also what you find in the 997.2 GTS. And it seems to do just fine as is, aside from Porsche’s deliberate limiting. If you give it a bigger throttle body, you get a lot more power, so it ain’t that.

Cooling? Yeah, I don’t exactly see a lot of guys with 9A1's saying they NEED the center radiator even under track conditions. My biggest gripe with the 9A1 is that it can be extremely slow to warm up the oil, even under 102F ambient conditions. That tells me it’s got excess capacity, not insufficient.

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I can’t take it in black because it just stands out like a sore thumb. It makes it even more obvious that it goes against the lines of the car and against the history of the marque. You cannot unsee those big black north-south stripes and hideous square CHMS that leave you sitting there going “who stuck a Cadillac grille on the back?”

Once seen, cannot be unseen.

And the vertical design just makes it that much worse. It’s a horrifying clash of directions, amplified and turned up to 11.

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I’ll come back to pricetag in a moment because wheels first. Wheels. Fucking hell I hate Porsche wheels more every time I have to even think about dealing with them. 19" RS Spyder wheels in 9A1 silver are more than $2250 each and that’s the discounted price. You’ll end up sending half the tires back because they’re 6 months away from age-out by the DOT code, and that’s for the most popular Porsche size ever . And they are absolutely miserable in terms of harshness.

Seriously. I drive something with 990#/920# springs and even on rock solid sidewalls, LITERALLY communicating tar strips through the wheel, it manages to be better over bumps than P305/35R19's. And now they’re making the wheels even bigger? That price increase better include a no questions asked dental work warranty too.

But a 997.2 with P305/40R18's? Honestly, if I could run P305/45R18, I would in a heartbeat. Sidewall flex gains alone would gain the C4GTS probably another two-hundredths of a G, possibly even four hundredths. I changed the speedo gear in my baby just so I could run P225/50ZR16 instead of P225/40ZR16 coming from P225/50ZR15. And face it: 911's look AMAZING with 18's.

But price.

Oh god price.

VAG, listen the fuck up, and listen fucking good. I AM YOUR TARGET MARKET. YOU ANGER ME AT YOUR OWN PERIL. IF the 992 was a superior car to the 997.2, THEN I would consider trading up. Instead, there is AMPLE evidence that the 991 chased off the ‘trade-up’ customers going 996->991 and 997->991, many of them immediately selling or even returning the 991 and going back to the 996 or 997.

But guess what? I can’t trade up to the 992 from the 997.2, because for some reason, you have decided to increase the like-for-like MSRP by more than $15 ,000. Oh yes you have, you Dieselgate motherfuckers, yes you have . MSRP sticker on my ridiculously well optioned C4GTS, $135,970. A 991.2 C4GTS configured the same way, $149,140 . And what do I get for this $15k? Uh, slightly nicer interior, worse looking rear end, and less power than I get by swapping the 991.2's throttle body over to my 997.2. Which costs about $350.

THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA WHEN CUSTOMERS ARE ALREADY ANGRY. I am shouting this because apparently Stuttgart is not hearing it. The price “starts” at $92150 - which is, gasp, good money for a 997.2 C2GTS. Yeah. That’s a problem there, since the 997.2 will go up in value. Not down. By the time it’s all said and done, expect 2019 examples to be acting like they are owed more than $130,000 at the low end and $160,000+ for anything fun. Before Turbo or GT3 or GT2RS where the price gets ruinous. On top of the PCNA dealers being given a free reign to charge you $250k just for an order slot on top of your car.

They’ve priced the car where their target market (older Porsche owners trading up) will walk away because of costs. Those that don’t, will walk away because of the car. (Worse.) They’ve created a mythology about a Porsche costing what it does because it’s the best. Well now they have all this evidence, so, hey, maybe it doesn’t? And abruptly, everything goes straight to hell across the board.

And launching it right as the economy is prepping for a major contraction or depression? Sigh.

This one is not going to break the 997.2's serial production record. But hey, maybe in 11 months we’ll be able to get them below the cost of still unsold 991.2's, right?

But... FUCK!  I thought that was the PSE valving there. Not actual fake tips. Fuck’s sake, Stuttgart, keep the idiots in VW and Audi out of your shit at gunpoint if you have to. This is just embarrassing.

CompactLuxuryFan > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/15/2018 at 00:38

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The Petersen Automotive Museum is dedicating most of its first floor to a Porsche exhibit right now (“The Porsche Effect”) and it actually gave me a new perspective on Porsche. I had always just put th em in the same category as other storied marques such as Alfa Romeo, where the focus was always on g earheads creating awesome cars, and that they just happened to get more lucky recently and are now in a better position. However, the exhibit showcases Porsche as having always been a company that consistently put forth best practices on all fronts. They have their gearheads like Ferdinand himself, and engineering and design are of course strong. B ut   marketing and community outreach are important parts of the juggernaut that it is today. What sets them apart from Alfa. That got me thinking about the way they’re running their show and I feel like I understand them better now.

T here was also a map showing their regional sales in 2017 and China by itself was the biggest market, bigger than the US and Europe. So there’s that, too.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/15/2018 at 00:39

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Well if we’re doing it in this format, I shall continue it!

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Holy crap, a freaking Buick?? This doesn’t bode well. My Mustang can be easily driven and handled with one hand in the “sport setting”; even easier in “normal” and “comfort”. If what you say is true, this doesn’t bode well.... The only other steering I’ve dealt with in 911s is my dad’s 74. Which is CHEATING because it’s so damn good. My bias will show immediately in which has the better steering......*THE OLDER ONE*.

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If you only hadn’t posted that pic of that Caddy.....That said, I think it looks better than the Caddy. I’ll take the “consolation prize” on this one.

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Not that it makes any of this better, I’m pretty sure the RS Spyder wheels are 20s.....From that image, 18s are the best aesthetically. Performance-wise your average driver or novice track nut won’t notice a damn thing.

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Oh you think you’re the only salty one? I’m content with the 996/997.1 and 981 Cayman used market. Come 2020-2022 I fully expect to be in that market with my wallet if college debt doesn’t sodomize me too hard; though with my going to a private engineering school.........You only live once.

My dad bought his ‘74 coupe NEW in 1975 at the age of 26-27, now 26-27 year old unless they got stupid lucky or come from money is affording any Porsche, let alone a base Carrera coupe. That’s what pisses me off. They’re more expensive than they need to be. and I’m sure they now it, but they can charge however much they want because they’ve got the evidence and whatnot. At least their mythology holds more real value than Ferrari’s....Even then it still sucks. I won’t defend the price, I can’t. If the economy is going for another recession, I’ll watch as the wealthy fickle cheapskates sell off their cars and I keep my classics because they’re never going outta style. The modern Porsche market is as f’ed up as the classic market.

The other problem we’re not truly addressing is how these and supercars that could only be handled by people willing to put up with the abuse are now so computerized even children could handle them without effort and all you need is a big enough wallet and these carmakers realized and capitalized on it. Tragically and logically, it’s just good business for them. And is stingy and penny-pinching as people who can afford 6-figure cars can be (LOGIC I DON’T UNDERSTAND), they’re more than happy to pay the prices.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > CompactLuxuryFan 11/15/2018 at 00:40

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If China is the biggest market, we know what future cars will sadly pander to...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/15/2018 at 11:12

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Tell us how you really feel. Ha!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 11/15/2018 at 11:14

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*Fuch’s sake...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/15/2018 at 11:16

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Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 11/15/2018 at 13:01

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It’s easier for me to keep my thoughts together that way, yeah. Anyhow!

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While that’s definitely true to an extent, quite frankly, parking both a Cayman GTS and a 991.2 were absolutely nerve-wracking for me because they had absolutely no damn feedback there either. Tires this wide are supposed to require effort to turn. I could have done it one-fingered and wouldn’t have felt a damn thing if I’d hit the curb. It’s just so fucking bad . Even with the Cayman GTS in sport-everything mode, the on-center feedback was just completely nonexistent.

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Once seen cannot be unseen. Told ya.

And I can’t agree... just because of the CHMS. It’s the laziest, dumbest, ugliest possible solution to the problem. Giant fucking red plastic square under an even bigger clear plastic rectangle with a pointless hump in the middle of it. It’s just... that’s just criminal.

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Nope; c enterlock RS Spyders were made in 19" for the 997 generation - both turbo and GTS. And you’re right that performance-wise, 99.99% of the drivers won’t notice a damn thing. But decreasing wheel diameter and increasing sidewall? 100% of drivers WILL notice it, because it will significantly reduce NVH and improve ride quality over bad pavement. Without compromising performance. Improving NVH is not a bad thing.

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You say that now, but the major driver of the 996/997 price rise? Customers hating the 991. If they hate the 992 as much or more? You can bet money that 996/997 and 981 prices will jump again. Even with the Caymans having known guaranteed engine failure. They’ll scream “it’s the last REAL Porsche” from the rooftops, but for at least some of them, it’s simply because they don’t know how to elucidate on the specifics they dislike.

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Oh, the whole market is just such a total fucking shitshow it’s not even funny. I am not a young buck by any measure. An d I’m definitively the youngest 911 owner who wasn’t born with an entire silverware drawer. By over a decade. People see how old I look and assume I’m driving something like an ‘05 Boxster. They are always shocked when I tell them ‘nope, the 997.2 C4GTS that costs two grand a year in tires is mine.’ Even more shocked when they find out I actually work for a living.

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Recession is optimistic based on signalling, frankly. If the bubble decides to pop instead of deflate gradually? Deflation will give you a recession that makes ‘08-’10 look like a minor blip. A pop will make 1929 look like a really good year. And there is zero chance of avoiding one of the two, especially with the regime making a wreck of trade and poisoning foreign relations.

In both scenarios, it’s going to come with a classic car market crash again. Look at what happened in ‘08-’10 with even Mopar muscle cars - and they never fully recovered. The only good thing is that Porsche’s just hold value better. But even then, without buyers? Car’s only worth what you can get for it today.

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Ugh, do not get me started on the fucking GT-R and what a goddamn nightmare it is. Actually, YES, LET’S. The GT-R is the perfect goddamn example. Nissan pitched it as a supercar for the masses, haven’t updated anything on it in years, yet the price has climbed from a halfway reasonable $75k to a $99k base and quickly escalating past   $175k .

Know what that extra $75,000 for the 2018 NISMO package gets you besides the overpriced wheels, a carbon fiber spoiler, and a bunch of badging ? One degree of additional camber in the rear . That’s it. At least the ‘15-’16 NISMO package you got some actual carbon fiber body panels in that $75k premium. But hey at least you can get the same from the $28,000 “Track Package.” Oh wait. You can’t.  

So to summarize, the difference between a $99k GT-R and a $175k GT-R is basically “I got very slightly fancier seats, a bunch of badges, a spoiler, and one degree of camber out back.” Oh, and maybe a quarter degree of caster up front. Oh BOY.

Porsche has just ... they just have decided “we’re Porsche. We can charge what we want. Plus we gotta pay for Dieselgate, so, fuck you.” Know how much power the 2019 Carrera GTS has? 450HP. Know how much power a 2012 Carrera GTS has? 408HP. You can take it up to around 430 for under $4k. I figure 450+ neighborhood at under $10k using bolt-in only.

So, you’re paying SIGNIFICANTLY more, for not much more power, a heavier package (2012? 325 0lbs for C4GTS. 2019? 3300lbs+,) less top speed (189MPH vs 183MPH, ) and so on. In other words, a less capable car that costs significantly more with no significant improvements . The ‘12 C4GTS is every bit as computerized as the ‘19 in most regards. It has traction control. It has the sport chrono PCM integration. It has the computer controlled hydraulic center differential. It has PTV. You can’t get into more trouble with a ‘12 than you can with a ‘19, in other words.